Chairman, Revenue Mobilisation, Allocation and Fiscal Commission, Mr. Elias Mbam, in this interview with Everest Amaefule, speaks on the stormy issue of salaries and allowances of political office holders
You have set up a committee to review the salaries and allowances of political, public and judicial office holders. Before we get to that, how did we arrive at such allowances that some Nigerians consider outrageous?
In 2007, that was about eight years ago; this commission reviewed the then salaries and allowances of political and public office holders. That was done in consideration of many factors. One of them was the monetisation of perks of office holders.
Before the monetisation, office holders of very high level were provided with vehicles, with houses, and maintained by government. Two, the commission then took into consideration the fundamentals of the Nigerian economy. It looked at the Gross Domestic Product growth rate, the inflation, and also wanted to ensure honesty and prestige of the office holder.
Most importantly, it looked at affordability and sustainability. Some of these allowances are not peculiar to only political office holders. There are some other agencies of government that also enjoy same.
That was how they arrived at the review of the remunerations of the office holders then. Since that was passed into law in 2008, this commission has not reviewed it again. It has remained so since then. Unfortunately, some people think that the commission on daily basis changes the salaries particularly of the National Assembly members.
So why do you want to review the packages downward now?
One is that the economic realities of today demand that we look at the prevailing circumstance and let it reflect on remunerations. As I said earlier, we have to ensure affordability and sustainability. Is the present salary affordable and sustainable? And of course, you cannot ignore the plea of Nigerians about the merits and the demerits of the current packages.
There was an attempt by the commission to review the packages downwards during the time of the late President Umaru Yar’Adua. That review never saw the light of the day. Why was the review unsuccessful?
I wouldn’t know because I wasn’t here then. From the much I know as a Nigerian, it was inconclusive. I wouldn’t want to use the word unsuccessful. It was inconclusive.
What do you want to do differently now to ensure that the bill is passed?
Well, this one; the mood of the nation supports it. The National Assembly is even in the forefront of the review. So if the problem was the National Assembly; this time I am lucky. If the leadership of the National Assembly is in support of the review, and the Nigerian people are in support of the review, and the governments at all levels are in support of the review; I wonder why it should not be successful.
What are we expecting in the review? Is it going to concentrate on the salaries or the allowances?
If you look at the remuneration package, the bulk of it is on allowances. Take for instance, the annual salary of a legislator is about N2m. I am not sure that is a concern to anybody. It is the allowances. And the law also is clear that you don’t reduce the salary after the appointment. Everybody knows that the problem or the issue is not the salary but the allowances. So we are looking at the allowances.
It is not going to be the affair of the commission alone. It is going to be an affair of all Nigerians, all stakeholders, and all levels of government. Within a week, we will advertise for submission of memoranda. We will invite memoranda from Nigerians so you have an opportunity yourself to make your own input. And we are outlining areas of concentration in that publication.
What are those areas of concentrations?
The allowances – ranging from vehicle, housing, to estacodes. It will be detailed.
So are we likely to see an upward review of the basic salary?
The process will determine that.
The judges kicked against the downward review of their earnings. How do you intend to tackle that?
What Nigerians say, we will do.
So are you going to put it to voting?
I set the process. What I mean by process is that first of all, we are going to invite memoranda. Two, we are going to meet to interact with stakeholders. We are going to meet; including with the judiciary, the executive at all levels of government. We will meet with Nigerians, stakeholders. We will also administer questionnaire. So all these will come up and we also compare with what obtains elsewhere. So, it is not a question of I wish; I don’t wish.
We are at a time when many states are not able to pay salaries and you are the chairman of RMAFC. Is it that the workforce is bloated or the remuneration is bloated?
My thinking is that they did not prioritise their needs; with the possibility of wastage, with the possibility of unnecessary expenditure. I don’t see why a government should not pay its workers. That is the first thing that should be done. They are now calling it stomach infrastructure. If you didn’t eat, you would not have been able to come here for this interview. Imagine somebody that has not been paid for six months! I think we should reorder our priorities.
I also feel strongly that if the states managed their resources and also don’t rely fully on revenue they get from the federation account, they wouldn’t have this problem.
Another problem is the huge sum of money that legislators, for instance, take every quarter that is called constituency project. How do we tackle this problem?
I am happy that somebody is pointing this out. I feel, too, that many people are not well informed about the salaries and allowances determined by the commission. From what have been determined, nobody in the National Assembly should get more than N1m in salaries and allowances. You cannot call severance allowance salary and you cannot call a vehicle loan allowance.
The salaries and allowances include the salaries of personal assistant to the legislator. It also includes the domestic staff. So by the time you remove all those ones, you will be surprised that the salary is much lower than N1m.
There have been allegations that they take more allowances than the commission has prescribed.
The law is very clear. If you take beyond what the law says, the chief accounting officer should be held accountable. I also expect that the journalist should invoke the Freedom of Information Act and not rely on rumours or speculations.
But a Non-Governmental Organisation invoked that law and it did not work. They refused to give a breakdown of their budget.
Is it not a law? Why not take it to the court of law? If you want information from this office and I refuse to give it to you, the FOI is clear on what you should do. So, I don’t think it is enough reason that you tried and you could not get it.
Let us take you to some specific allowances which you have mentioned. There is personal assistant; there is domestic staff; there are legislative aides and there is special assistant. Don’t you see some duplication here?
It is good we read the law very well. The special assistant is supposed to come from the system. Like the National Assembly which you mentioned, the National Assembly Service Commission is supposed to provide the special assistant. The PA is personal to him.
The service recognises that at the level of a legislator, a level of service should be provided. It is not everything that you will have time to attend to.
It also recognises that a level of domestic staff like cook, gardener, and steward should be provided. The only thing different now is that instead of government recruiting and posting them to your house; you are paid and you now recruit and pay the people.
You had mentioned that some of these allowances also apply to services other than political office holders. Given the circumstances we have found ourselves, are you recommending a service-wide review of salaries and allowances?
If I were to do that, I would have long released the result. It is a process. I am here not to serve myself but to serve Nigerians. So it is not my wish that matters. If it were my wish, I would have long given it.
But you are the Chairman of RMAFC. That presumes some expertise on the economy. So you should have some opinion.
I am presiding. I will not allow my prejudice or wish to override the wishes of the majority of Nigerians. That is why I am here. So, I will depend on what majority of Nigerians are saying and then make a decision.
I will make a decision based on what is available to me. If this process goes on, I will follow the end result of the process. I cannot say, because I don’t like you as a minister, you cannot get X naira. So, my own position is immaterial in this respect.
The state governments are eventually being bailed out. What is your take on this?
It is their money. That money is the tax element on the operations of the Nigerian Liquefied Natural Gas and the tax belongs to the federation. It is just that it is timely. It is a bailout in the sense that it came at the right time but whether they had problem or not; they are supposed to share it. It is one of the sources of revenue to the federation account which is shared among the three tiers of government.
We learnt that part of what they shared is from the Excess Crude Account.
I heard that the way you heard it. But what was brought to me this morning is that what was shared was from the LNG. Well, the Federation Account Allocation Committee has also agreed to share that (ECA). It is also their money. That money belongs to the federation. It belongs to the three tiers of government.
It appears there is no need for the Excess Crude Account any longer.
It depends on what you mean by need. The purpose of the ECA is to have reserve for the rainy day and if it has started raining, and you decide to take advantage of your reserve; I don’t think it is a question of need. It is a question of doing the work it was meant to do.
Don’t you think it may rain more in the future?
You have to meet the needs of today before you talk about tomorrow. And how much is the money? I heard the Accountant General say $1.6bn or is it $1.7bn. It is not much. We don’t hope that the price of crude oil will remain the way it is. I have said several times that the downward trend in the price of crude oil raises an opportunity for us because it will make us to think of how to take advantage of other ways of developing our economy and that goes straight to diversification.
I support the idea of taking advantage of the opportunity that the problem provides for us to now look at other sources of revenue. And I think that is where we will finally land – to develop other sources and I believe; we will not lack. We have enough potential in this country.
The way you are talking about taking advantage of other sectors of the economy; what exactly are you looking at?
What I am looking at is the solid minerals sector. Basically, all states and even all local governments have one mineral deposit or the other. I’m also looking at agriculture which sustained the economy in the first republic. What is wrong with the groundnut pyramid, the cocoa and the perm kernel, cotton and rubber? These are the areas that provided the highest number of employment to our people. We left them in pursuit of the money from oil and gas.
This is also an opportunity for the manufacturing sector. Most of our industries have collapsed. So this is an opportunity to revitalise our industries. When they start production, they will employ people and pay their taxes. The economy will be reactivated and at the end, it will lead to more development.
Why have investors ignored our solid minerals? What can we do differently to attract investment to this sector?
That is the question we should answer. Why are people not interested in the sector? For an investor to be interested, the environment must be attractive. Why is our environment not attractive? The reasons are obvious to you. We have problem with power and infrastructure. We have security problem. We have even legal and institutional framework problems. So these things must be brought to the level acceptable to the international community. So we really need to ask ourselves that question. Why are people not taking advantage of the solid minerals sector?
But that is to the extreme. I know that a lot of things are happening in the sector. Right now, they have started contributing to the federation account. It is not just like nothing is going on but we believe that we should develop that area.
What is the level of their contribution to the federation account? Is it not insignificant?
The important thing is that it has started. Is it worse now that it has started than when it had not started? It is not significant compared to the other sources but that is why we are saying, develop. If we develop, it becomes significant. It can even become better than others.
You talked about infrastructure and specifically power. Where do we get the money to develop the infrastructure now that it is already raining?
We have to order our priorities right. You don’t borrow money to build government house. We have to prioritise our needs because for now, we can’t meet all our needs. So even if we are borrowing, we should target areas that will help us to grow our economy and if we do that, certainly power will come very high as a priority.
Let me take you back to the issue of remuneration of lawmakers. The National Assembly made a move to include their principal officers among Nigerians to be entitled to life pension.
Well, when you are talking about pension; I will tell you straightaway that our commission is not involved. Our responsibility ends with terminal benefits for political office holders. If there are laws about pension, we are not involved. And I wouldn’t be able to provide any answer in that respect.
But you are a key player in this economy as long as revenue generation and allocation is concerned. You should have an opinion.
I am a key player; no doubt about that but I have a limitation in my mandate. It is not within our mandate. You are asking me these questions here because I am the Chairman of RMAFC and not as Elias Mbam. When I get out here and you want to ask my opinion as a Nigerian; I will give it to you.
It does appear that jumbo salaries have not taken care of the need to prevent public officials from putting their hands into the public tilt. What is your take on this?
Well, from every 12, there must be a Judas. I don’t even know which one is jumbo. Is it the one you publish in your newspapers where it is said we have determined remunerations up to the tune of more than N30m for a person or the one that we determined that nobody earns up to N1m take home. None of these political appointees or members of the National Assembly earn up to N1m in one month.
But you are aware that even The Economist compared the earnings of legislators across the world and ranked Nigeria among the highest.
I need to see what they are using for the comparison. I need to see it to know whether they are comparing it with facts. Most of the things I read are not the facts. If they are taking money from elsewhere; I don’t know about that. But what we are saying is that with respect to what we determine at RMAFC, they don’t earn up to N1m a month. If you are comparing that; I need to see side by side what they are comparing with.
But you saw the publication which went virile.
I have questioned some of the publications I see. Were you not aware of the publication that said wardrobe allowance was N8.6bn? Was that a fact? What I am saying is that for me to comment; I need to see the comparison or you mention them.
Even that wardrobe allowance you mentioned now. Do our lawmakers who had been well off need such allowance when the masses are suffering?
You have opportunity to air your view now. We are now reviewing that package and I will invite you to air your view.
The earnings of many political office holders are shrouded in secrecy. Why don’t you put these in the public domain for the sake of transparency?
I think you are not fair to the commission. Bring your computer and open our website.
I know it is on your website. Why don’t you put them on domains with wider reaches?
We have put it in newspapers more than 10 times. Each time there was issue raised by the public, we put it there. If you need it; before you go we make photocopy and give to you. It is a public document. It is not a secret. So, it is unfair to say that it is shrouded in secrecy. You have been writing on this. When I went for interview on a TV station; they had a copy as they were talking to me.
Now as a nation; how can we ensure that what you prescribe is what public officials collect?
People should do their work. We have chief accounting officers. Once it is a law; if you contravene a law, you should be taken up. We have chief accounting officers in every government establishment. If it is the National Assembly, the clerk is the chief accounting officer. We have the Auditor-General of the Federation. So government has agencies that are charged with the responsibility of ensuring that laws are obeyed. And then journalists have the Freedom of Information Act. If you need the salary of Elias Mbam; it should be given to you. So, I think everybody should do their work.
How far have you gone about the review and what if the National Assembly does not accept what finally comes out from the process, what will you do?
As you correctly said, the process has started. You must have read that we have called for memoranda from the members of the public. We are receiving memoranda and we are doing consultations. We are gathering information; we are gathering data. And that is where to start.
I don’t want to believe that the National Assembly will in any way do anything not to address this issue. Already, I am aware that they have even constituted a small committee on their own to look at the issue. So we need to sensitise everybody to buy into this. And we are trying to extend the consultation to the National Assembly. So I am optimistic that they are going to deliberate on whatever we present to them. (Culled from Punch).